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.............. Log on luboff.log started at Mon Aug 14 14:49:28 PDT 2000 ........... |
| PatPete |
Are we done yet? We're in Santa Fe, almost mid-way in our workshop tour. It's been great so far. songwriters knocking us out with their writing. Done |
| danNsara |
hi DP |
| DavidPiano |
Hello, Nan, Dan & Sara, Pat and Pete. |
| danNsara |
that's great Pat & Pete -- are you about halfway done with the tour now? |
| PatPete |
Yes, we have four down and six to go. done |
| JodiMuse |
Hi David! :) |
| danNsara |
cool -- and you're ending up in Nashville right? |
| DavidPiano |
Hey Jodi. |
| PatPete |
Yes, we'll be there around 9/1. Last workshop is an all day event in Memphis on 8/26. |
| danNsara |
sounds great |
| Nan |
DnS will the rules be the same? we put in a ? when we have a question right? and wait for you to call on us |
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| DavidPiano |
Hello Johnny. |
| proi.webpage.com |
[2009] touser Welcome! If you have a question for our guest, please type a "?" and one of our moderators will tell you when to go ahead. If you have any questions, feel free to privately page me (JodiMuse) and I'll be happy to help. Meanwhile, enjoy! :-) |
| Nan |
hello the SCU |
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| danNsara |
hi Rod |
| JodiMuse |
Did that message go to everyone? |
| Nan |
hey ya rod |
| DavidPiano |
Hello, Rod. |
| danNsara |
got it Jodi |
| JodiMuse |
Hi Rod. |
| Rod |
Type HERE |
| Nan |
yep |
| kenny |
hi rod |
| Beth |
Hi David |
| JodiMuse |
Great. |
| ShortcutJohnny |
Hello everyone |
| DavidPiano |
Hey Beth. |
| Rod |
Hey there beautiful *wink* |
| kenny |
his short |
| danNsara |
Well, I guess we can get started -- If you have a "?" during the course of our chat, type the "?" and I'll call on you when it's your turn |
| ShortcutJohnny |
anyone from Florida? |
| JodiMuse |
The log has begun now. |
| Nan |
no flirting allowed in here rod!! |
| DavidPiano |
Not I, Johnny. |
| danNsara |
We're really happy that Pat & Pete Luboff could join us here tonight |
| JodiMuse |
Thanks very much, Pete & Pat. We appreciate it! |
| Nan |
? |
| PatPete |
We're happy to be here in cyber space with you. |
| danNsara |
I'd like to start by asking Pat & Pete to give us a quick little highlight of your life and career |
| danNsara |
in two sentences or less :-) |
| PatPete |
LOL! We met in 1966 and moved in with each other on the first night we met. The rest has been songwriting history. |
| danNsara |
wow - love at first sight |
| JodiMuse |
Wow! Talk about love at first sight. ;-) |
| danNsara |
and of course, you guys are not only hit songwriters but also authors and educators |
| PatPete |
Our latest take on songwriting is that it's the best thing in the world to do. To teach what you want to learn. |
| JodiMuse |
laugh. Ok. Climb OUT of my head, Danny&Sara... There's not enough room for us both. ;) |
| Nan |
LOL@JODI |
| danNsara |
very true |
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| PatPete |
Hi Danny & Sara, we look forward to seeing you in the flesh soon. |
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| danNsara |
Hi Jeff |
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| DavidPiano |
Hey Jeff! |
| Nan |
Hello Jeff |
| JodiMuse |
Hi Jeff! |
| JeffM |
hi |
| kenny |
hi jeff |
| ShortcutJohnny |
hi jeff |
| danNsara |
yes -- we're looking forward to it too |
| danNsara |
Nan - you have the first question of the night! |
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| Nan |
ok..PP how successful has your relationship with taxi |
| Nan |
been |
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| PatPete |
We can say from personal experience that Taxi is run by extremely honest people who are trying to do a service for songwriters and the music business. |
| Nan |
thank you guys |
| PatPete |
We screen songs for Taxi and it has taught us a lot about what it's like to be on the receiving end of songs. |
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| PatPete |
For instance, that first reaction to the title of the song. It's "Oh, this could be interesting." or O |
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| PatPete |
"Oh, not again." Even though we love songwriters, we can't help being human and reacting that way. It has taught us the importance of titles in a very concrete way. |
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| JeffM |
What's an "Oh, not again" title? :-) |
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| Nan |
I hear you, i tried publishing once.. |
| Nan |
lol |
| PatPete |
A title that says I'm a victim or you suck. |
| Nan |
lol |
| JeffM |
"I'm a victim or you suck" is my best title! |
| danNsara |
Oh - I was bringing in "You Suck" as an idea for my cowrite tomorrow |
| Nan |
Do you own a paper shredder is my favorite line lol |
| JodiMuse |
lol |
| PatPete |
Depends on what you're sucking. I blame that on Pete. |
| Nan |
LOL@Sara |
| Nan |
he i wrote one called "Stuck on |
| Nan |
Stupid" |
| PatPete |
We believe in writing songs that we want to hear. |
| Nan |
my husband got offended for some reaason LOL |
| Beth |
that was the name of it, Nan |
| danNsara |
A followup on Taxi -- a lot of songwriters ask us if it's worth the money...do you think it is? |
| JodiMuse |
lol @ Nan I like that one. ;) |
| Nan |
yeah beth :) |
| Nan |
good question |
| ShortcutJohnny |
good critiques from TAXI |
| PatPete |
That's a good question. We think so because if you're serious about songwriting you spend lots of money on it. Taxi is a serious chance at very big connections and at the least is a good tool for feedback on your songs. |
| Nan |
Miles, aren't you a Taxi member |
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| PatPete |
It's one avenue to pitch, but like all the others, the song has to literally knock you out of your chair to make it over the hurdles. |
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| Miles |
yeah nan...2 years now |
| Nan |
you guys have to talk sometimes or you get booted... |
| Miles |
I see that !!!! |
| ShortcutJohnny |
waht are some other avenues like TAXI |
| Nan |
? |
| PatPete |
There's nothing quite like Taxi, but there are tip sheets. |
| danNsara |
Shortcut -- if you have a question for the Luboffs, type a "?" and I'll call on you |
| danNsara |
Nan - you're up....again, if you have a question, type a ? and I'll call on you when it's your turn |
| Nan |
Have you guys heard of songs.com |
| PatPete |
Yes. don't know enough to make a comment. |
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| Nan |
it is another avenue for getting your songs heard |
| Nan |
me either lol |
| JodiMuse |
Hi Marty. Welcome. |
| Nan |
hello marty |
| Marty |
Hi Pat and Pete.:-) |
| danNsara |
Nan - we know one of the founders of songs.com -- it's a good avenue for independent artists |
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| PatPete |
Hi, Marty, from Tucson? |
| Nan |
come on guys surely I'm not the only one with a ?...thanks DnS |
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| Marty |
Yep!:-) |
| JodiMuse |
Hey, Kenna and Stephen. :) |
| danNsara |
ok - who else has questions |
| Beth |
Hi Stephen and Kenna |
| ShortcutJohnny |
? |
| stephenb |
hi jodi |
| danNsara |
shortcut - go ahead |
| Kenna |
? |
| PatPete |
Marty hosted our Tucson workshop. He's a great guy who is working to conenct songwriters in Tucson. |
| danNsara |
Kenna - you'll be next |
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| JodiMuse |
That's great! |
| PatPete |
Would you like us to ad lib? |
| ShortcutJohnny |
Is it nearly impossible to pitch a country song, if you're not based in Nashville? |
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| PatPete |
We don't think anything is impossible. Just keep trying, doing what seems the best thing to do at the time. Work on establishing one-on0one personal contacts. |
| kenny |
? |
| PatPete |
There's a good connection thing in Nashville called Rowfax, I think it's about $160 a year or more and it gives vurrent leads. |
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| PatPete |
That's current leads |
| kenny |
what do you find the good to bad ratio when you're screening |
| danNsara |
kenny - Kenna actually is before you |
| PatPete |
It's very rare to find any songs that are forwardable. We live for those. |
| kenny |
sorry |
| danNsara |
that's ok -- I'll call on anyone when they're next just to be fair to everyone |
| PatPete |
Most days, we don't find any. It can be grueling emotionally. |
| Miles |
? |
| PatPete |
It's really a thrill when we find a writer who is saying something special in a special way. |
| ShortcutJohnny |
? |
| danNsara |
Kenna's up next followed by Miles then Shortcut |
| PatPete |
Is that a question about what we just said? |
| Kenna |
hey Pat and Pete...you guys are coming to Memphis at the end of this month...i hope to catch your session with the MSA...I have been asked to submit some of my songs to a California singer who is putting together a cd. what should i send besides a tape and lyric sheets? and should i copywrite before sending? |
| kenny |
? |
| PatPete |
Send a cd if you can instead of a tape. Neatly typed lyric sheets with your name and phone number on them and NO chord names. Not necessary to copyright. The law protects you as soon as your song is in fixed form, i.e., written down or recorded. |
| Kenna |
great. Thats what I'll do..thanks! |
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| PatPete |
Maybe a nice short, sweet cover letter, no life story, just here are the songs you asked for. |
| Kenna |
not too needy then.... |
| PatPete |
Talk to someone personally. Call a week later to find out if they got the tape. |
| PatPete |
Don't ask them how they liked it. Just if they got it. |
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| Nan |
hey ya andy |
| Beth |
Hi Andy |
| Kenna |
i guess if they like it, they will let me know |
| danNsara |
A follow up Pat/Pete -- a lot of songwriters are very worried about people stealing their material. How do you guys handle that? |
| ShortcutJohnny |
hi andy |
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| stephenb |
? |
| andyX |
hey nan, beth and all |
| PatPete |
We don't worry at all. As Tom T. Hall said, we would be honored if they thought enough of it to steal it. |
| andman15 |
hey |
| Nan |
let someone else do the work..then you draw the royalties!! |
| danNsara |
Miles - you're up next followed by Shortcut and Kenny and then StephenB |
| Nan |
not a bad deal |
| kenny |
why do you think that is , do you feel that they just don't have enough formal training or what do you think |
| Miles |
What is the best way to find, and develope those one on one connections that you talked about earlier? |
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| andman15 |
I'm sorry, but I haven't heard of you two, what type of songs do you write |
| PatPete |
Present yourself with confidence. Make friends with the secretaries and assistants on the phone. Respond as rapidly as possible to any comments for rewites. |
| PatPete |
rewrites |
| PatPete |
Do not negotiate the business aspects yourself. |
| Marty |
ao |
| JodiMuse |
Andman, their bios are online at http://www.musesmuse.com/songhome.html |
| PatPete |
For instance, if you want to get a song to Dwight Yoakum. Call up his producer or manager. |
| PatPete |
Get the name of the person you talk to. Ask if Dwight is recording now. |
| PatPete |
They'll say, "No, we won't be looking until October.l" You say thanks and call at the end of September. |
| PatPete |
Ask for the person you spoke to the first time and say, You told me in august that Dwight would be looking in October. |
| PatPete |
Would now be a good time to send a tape? |
| PatPete |
I forgot, present yourself as a publisher, because you are until you sign you song to one. |
| PatPete |
If they say yes, ask if there's something special you should write on the envelope so it will be recognized as not unsolicited. |
| PatPete |
Send the tape and call a week or two later to see if they got it. You might get a chance to get more information on what's missing from the project, up[=tempo? |
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| PatPete |
or ballad, or whatever, or subject matter. Then you can send another song that might be closer to the target. |
| PatPete |
Don 't get impatient. Building relationships takes time. |
| PatPete |
done. |
| Kenna |
. |
| danNsara |
good advice Pat/Pete....I think we have Shortcut followed by Kenny then Stephen |
| danNsara |
Go ahead Shortcut |
| andyX |
. |
| Marty |
. |
| ShortcutJohnny |
I've been getting 3.5-4 ratings from TAXI. How close is that to forwarded material? |
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| PatPete |
You can have an absolutely terrific song but if it's not right for that particular listing, it won't get forwarded. |
| PatPete |
It's a real art to read those listings and send a song that's applicable. |
| kenny |
nothing at this time |
| PatPete |
If the listing says an artist a l la Garth Brooks, you sincerely have to be able to see Garth Brooks singing it. |
| PatPete |
Is it his subject matter, style, range, persanna? |
| PatPete |
personna. |
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| PatPete |
I've given songs top ratings and said this is a song that I can see a lot of peole recording but not the one this listing is for. |
| PatPete |
people |
| PatPete |
done |
| andyX |
? |
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| danNsara |
Kenny - did you still have a question? |
| ShortcutJohnny |
thanks, good advice |
| danNsara |
andy, you'll be after Stephen |
| Marty |
? |
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| ShortcutJohnny |
"?" |
| kenny |
not right now |
| danNsara |
Stephen, you're up followed by Andy then Marty then Shortcut |
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| PatPete |
Is anybody out there from Amarillo, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Oklahoma City, Little Rock or Memphis? |
| stephenb |
wow lots of good advice guys, I'm going to Nashville next week so I have been hitting the phones pretty hard ... any advice for getting in doors when I get there? |
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| Nan |
hello paddi |
| Paddi |
discussion tonite? |
| Nan |
yep and a good one |
| PatPete |
Check in at ASCAP and BMI if you haven't joined one already. a membership representative will help you with ideas. go to songwriter nights at the various clubs. |
| stephenb |
yeah I have that covered... anything else?? |
| PatPete |
Kenna, did you say you'll be at the Memphis event? Back to Nashville. Check out the Bluebird Monday night thing, it's an experience. |
| PatPete |
The Songwriter's Guild has great events where you can meet people, as does NSAI. One thing will lead to another. We call nashville songwriter heaven. |
| stephenb |
k thanks |
| danNsara |
Or songwriter hell sometimes |
| PatPete |
Don't know about that 20 number |
| PatPete |
Heaven is a choice we must make. |
| danNsara |
Aahh - so philosphical...tis true |
| danNsara |
Andy, you're up followed by Marty then shortcut |
| andyX |
what are the listings ur referring to and where can u find them |
| PatPete |
Kenna, e-mail us at pluboff@writesongs.com |
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| Marty |
. |
| PatPete |
I think we were talking about the Taxi listings. You can find them at Taxi.com |
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| Nan |
welcome poof |
| danNsara |
and the rowfax you can get info on at www.musicrow.com |
| andyX |
are there other sites that have listings |
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| PatPete |
Thanks, for that infor danNsara. We'd also like to recommend a relatively new magazine, Music Biz. Really well-written |
| danNsara |
Do you have a web address for them Pat & Pete? |
| PatPete |
I know there are. Danny, I think I ran across one connected to your site. What the name on it? |
| danNsara |
SongPitch.com |
| danNsara |
and Jodi is affiliated with Songscope.com |
| Marty |
. |
| danNsara |
Marty - I think you're up next |
| PatPete |
try MusicBizMag.com or email info at info@MusicBizMag.com and tell them we sent you. |
| JodiMuse |
I've had personal contact with them (SongScope). Looked in their eyes, so to speak. I know that what they're doing, they're doing with the songwriters best interests at heart. That's the *only* reason I'd ever associate The Muse's Muse with them. Just wanted to toss that in so people understood me. ;) |
| danNsara |
Shortcut you're after Marty...if anyone else has a question, type a ? and I'll call on you when it's your turn |
| Marty |
If a song rec'd for a listing at TAXI is beter for anohter listing are you given some type of info to the listing it might be better for? |
| PatPete |
No, we're strictly screening for the listing we're assigned to. |
| PatPete |
At that point, we're unaware of any other listings. |
| Marty |
done.:-) |
| PatPete |
We might recommend another type of listing, but not a specific one. |
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| PatPete |
We will say that if the listing lists three artists, it's probably actually one of them. |
| PatPete |
done. |
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| PatPete |
Since there's a lull here, we'll put in our two cents that most of the business of songs is done through collaboration. |
| PatPete |
We're advocating a wide open sharing among any and all songwriters. Creativity thrives in an atmosphere of openness and trust. |
| PatPete |
and that atmosphere is really just a personal choice to be that way. |
| Miles |
? |
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| Nan |
society is as we percieve it to be |
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| Marty |
. |
| PatPete |
Hey, we're sitting here sitting champagne. Who has a question? |
| Miles |
How important is a full demo for TAXI's purpose? Can it be just guitar/vocal? |
| PatPete |
I mean sipping! |
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| Nan |
LOL |
| PatPete |
Yes, but great vocal and great guitar. the song is the thing! |
| kenny |
? |
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| Miles |
thanks! |
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| Kenna |
? |
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| PatPete |
Speaking of the song. There's what you say and then there's how you say it. |
| PatPete |
What you say is the result of your life learning to the point of the writing of the song. |
| Beth |
? |
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| danNsara2 |
sorry guys- our cable modem crashed |
| Miles |
But if you can get it done, would they prefer a full blown demo? |
| PatPete |
how you say it is the result of working on your gift to express it. |
| PatPete |
If you can get a really good demo, of course, it helps. The three most important aspects of a demo are 1,. a great vocal |
| Kenna |
. |
| PatPete |
2. the "feel" and 3. the bass (harmonic structure). Adding some tasty riffs to fill in the spaces between sections helps. |
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| Marty |
. |
| Miles |
thanks.....done |
| PatPete |
Everything about the demo has to support the song, help it to deliver its emotional message. |
| poof |
' |
| danNsara2 |
Kenny did you have a question? Then I think Kenna followed by Beth |
| kenny |
what do you think of the old ballard type songs , the kind george jones and vern gosdin write and sing any market for that kind of work |
| Marty |
? |
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| PatPete |
A truly moving song in a contemporary arrangement is always viable. Sometimes writers demo the song several differnt ways. |
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| griffd |
Hello Pete & Pat, Dan Griffith here |
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| poof |
' |
| griffd |
Hello |
| PatPete |
Try to make your demo fixable in an economic fashion by getting masters of the tracks only, tracks plus back- |
| griffd |
Dan Griffith in Tempe AZ here |
| PatPete |
ups, plus a full mix. Keep all your masters. Hey, Dan! How are you? |
| PatPete |
Still roasting down there? |
| Nan |
hello there dan..welcome |
| griffd |
Great, Just got back from Austin an hour ago |
| Marty |
. |
| griffd |
Did you make it up the hill to Jerome OK? |
| poof |
' |
| PatPete |
Dan was instrumental in setting up our Phoenix workshop. Yes, we drove the motor home and car separately as far as Cottonwood. |
| PatPete |
Then left the motor home there and took the car to Jerome. Also took a side trip to Sedona, beautiful! |
| PatPete |
Kenny was asking about demos. |
| griffd |
Lets talk demos |
| PatPete |
The thing is that six months after you finish your demo, you're going to be singing the song live. |
| poof |
' |
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| PatPete |
You're going to make a mistake and it will be better than what you wrote, and you'll wnat to change the demo |
| PatPete |
Make that easy by keeping masters of various levels of the demo. |
| Paddi |
"?" |
| PatPete |
Did that anser your question Kenny? |
| Paddi |
thanks |
| kenny |
thanks |
| poof |
' |
| danNsara2 |
Kenna, I think you're up now followed by Beth then Paddi |
| Kenna |
I went into the studio to do my demo and it isn't even as good as my "boom box" version. Should I send the living room tape since its better? of course, burned to CD...hehe |
| PatPete |
Most records imitate the demos pretty accurately, so it's your last chance to show your vision of the song. |
| Marty |
don't forget my ?:-) |
| PatPete |
Send what you think is best if it's an appropriate pitch. Don't let anything stop you from pitching. You'll do better in the studio next time. |
| PatPete |
Don't apologize in the pitch. |
| Kenna |
k...thanks. I will send what I think is best |
| Kenna |
which is just me and my guitar in my living room |
| Nan |
i need to go guys..thanks for the chat PatPete..night all |
| Marty |
after Beth.:-) |
| poof |
' |
| danNsara2 |
Bye Nan |
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| danNsara2 |
Ok - sorry Marty -- Beth, you're up followed by Marty then Paddi |
| PatPete |
Songwriting is a cycle of writing, demoing and pitching. You have to keep the cycle going. |
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| poof |
' |
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| danNsara2 |
Marty, I think Beth is gone for the moment, so you're up |
| danNsara2 |
then Paddi |
| Kenna |
thanks pat and pete |
| PatPete |
You're welcome! Write On! |
| cc |
Hi all. Did I miss it? |
| Marty |
ok, for us more musically minded, we talked in the workshop about doing the lyrics devoid of any instruments. Got any helpful hints in that area?:-) |
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| danNsara2 |
no cc - we're in the middle of our chat....if you have a question type a ? and I'll call on you when it's your turn |
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| cc |
? |
| Marty |
I ten to want to grab the instrument to work it all out. |
| poof |
' |
| PatPete |
Experiment, experiment, experiment. Play with the words and melody justusing your voice. Your hands will go to the same old chords, but your voice can play more freely |
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| PatPete |
Try different intervals, phrasing, tempos. |
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| PatPete |
Meldoy has an emotional quality. Eventually you'll come out with the melody that perfectly suits the emotional message of the words. |
| poof |
' |
| PatPete |
Sorry about the typos but I'm trying to type fast. |
| danNsara2 |
that's ok Pat & Pete -- we can read typo |
| PatPete |
who's next? |
| griffd |
I have to run, nice chatting and thanks for the wisdom. WriteOn |
| danNsara2 |
Paddi - you're up followed by CC |
| PatPete |
Bye, Dan |
| Paddi |
Hi Patn'Pete I just wrote and recorded a song in the 1st person and realized it probably would have worked better in the 3rd person to avoid putting a time frame on it...like from a story teller or observer roll. My question is would it be acceptable to leave the demo as is and submit alternate lyric sheet? I like the way the recording turned out. It does capture the song pretty good. |
|
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| PatPete |
No, it's really awkward for the listener to read a different lyric than what's being sung. Unfortunately you can't ask any listener to hear through anything. |
| cc |
I have to add 2 cents Paddi--I now always ask for a track mix only, no vocal, so that I can have it resung affordably. |
| PatPete |
But this goes back to our idea about making the demo flexible so you can easily re-do it in this type of situation. |
|
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| PatPete |
two great minds! |
| Paddi |
Yeah but my so called pal erased my files!!! |
| Paddi |
Oh well back to the drawing board |
| Paddi |
Thanks |
| PatPete |
Actually, this sort of thing happens a lot. Oops! Keep the masters! |
| PatPete |
Don't leave the studio without them. |
| danNsara2 |
bummer Paddi |
|
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| poof |
' |
| Paddi |
Well it's my home recording stuff so it's my bad |
| danNsara2 |
CC - do you have a question |
| cc |
Forgive me if this question has been asked, but I am about to relocate to Nashville--and I just wonder whether you feel it truly makes a difference to be there. |
|
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| PatPete |
Danny and Sara could probably answer this better than we, but it's our take that it would be better to be there. |
| PatPete |
You can't beat the real thing, face to face networking. |
| danNsara2 |
Yes, CC -- it's very difficult to make it unless you're here |
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| Marty |
Type HEREsorry, system crashed.:-( |
| danNsara2 |
part of it is the song, but a lot of it is patience and networking as Pat & Pete have said |
| poof |
' |
| danNsara2 |
Beth, I think you're up |
| Beth |
Did you guys start out writing with each other or did you write your first songs with someone else |
| PatPete |
Pete was writing songs with someone else when we met. My previous songwriting experience had been in the Girl Scouts. |
| PatPete |
Now we write with each other, with third and foutrh parties and in groups of up to 100. |
| PatPete |
fourth |
| Beth |
100? |
| Paddi |
? |
| PatPete |
When we write with each other, we can be anywhere. We finished our last two songs while climbing mountains |
| danNsara2 |
wow - divide that statutory rate by 100...hmm what is that? |
| PatPete |
At NSAI, we led one of our 12 Steps to Building Better Songs workshops to about 100 people, which is basically a mock collaboration |
| PatPete |
Pete doesn't like mock. |
| PatPete |
Simulated is better. |
|
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| danNsara2 |
Did you put all their names on the lyric sheet? |
| Marty |
. |
| poof |
' |
|
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| poof |
great question |
| PatPete |
We don't actually finish the song in that situation, but we write a chorus and a verse just to show the process. The most we have |
|
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| danNsara2 |
very interesting guys |
| PatPete |
actually completed a song with is 15 people. We did have one of our workshop songs cut with 10 writers on it. that group uses a psuedoname |
| PatPete |
to pitch the song under one name, but when it was cut, we did get all the writers' names on the CD. |
| kenny |
? |
| danNsara2 |
Did you have to pay extra for that? |
|
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| PatPete |
It is interesting and lots of fun. We say the workshop really worked if someone falls off the couch laughing. |
| danNsara2 |
that's great |
| danNsara2 |
Paddi - I think you're next followed by Kenny |
| PatPete |
No, we didn't pay extra. And we got paid up-front for the CDs and sent the royalty checks out the the writers right away. |
| cc |
So sorry. My computer relocated me. Missed the answer entirely . . . But thank you!!\ |
| PatPete |
the ones with money cahsed them and the poor ones framed them. |
| Beth |
? |
| PatPete |
cashed |
| danNsara2 |
lol |
| Paddi |
I recorded a song that I think could be either country or pop. I've recorded it leaning toward pop style. Is it uncool to "suggest" that a song could be a cross over in a cover letter? Or should we let the industry professionals come to there own conclusions regarding our songs??? |
| Marty |
:-) |
| poof |
' |
| PatPete |
Can you hear the artist actually singing this song? Is the demo going to make it harder for them to hear the artist singing the song? |
| PatPete |
Obviously, if you're pitching it to the artist, the suggestion is understood that you think they would want to sing it. |
| Paddi |
I'm not sure what you mean |
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| PatPete |
The demo should sound close to what the artist should do. |
| PatPete |
We mean would do. |
| danNsara2 |
Yes, that's very true Pat & Pete |
| Paddi |
I find these days some songs are pretty close Like Lonestar's Amazed |
| danNsara2 |
Just a footnote on that - it's pretty common in Nashville for publishers to do two demos of a song that might crossover |
| poof |
' |
| Paddi |
I see |
| danNsara2 |
This Kiss had both a very pop demo and a country demo |
| PatPete |
We agree with danNSara |
| Marty |
. |
| kenny |
is it a good idea to let home town groups cut your material |
| Paddi |
so when submitting two versions can u still count it as only one submission??lol |
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| Paddi |
done...sorry kenny |
| PatPete |
Yes! Go for it! Do this as much as you can. It's free promotion. From a Distance was covered 15 times before Bette Mid |
| PatPete |
dler cut it. |
| cc |
? |
| PatPete |
You wouldn't submit two version, only the one approrpiate one. |
| PatPete |
Two versions...appropriate... |
| Paddi |
whichever genre your targeting? |
| PatPete |
Yes. More specifically the particular artist you're targeting. |
| Paddi |
Thank you |
| danNsara2 |
Beth, I think you're up next followed by CC |
| Beth |
I was just wondering what song that was and who recorded it...I would like to hear how it turned out with that many songwriters contributing to it... |
| poof |
' |
| PatPete |
It was a song called "Roots & Wings" which was cut by a local L.A. artist Sue Crawford. It has been used at Fathers and Mothers Day celebrations, weddings and funerals. Now that's what we call an all-purpose song! |
| PatPete |
it turned out absolutely wonderful. It's the way we teach songwriting, by doing it with the people in our workshops. |
| Marty |
. |
| danNsara2 |
that's great Pat & Pete |
| PatPete |
We have a way of getting everyone to be on the same page about what we're trying to express. |
| Beth |
o.k. thanks |
| danNsara2 |
CC - do you have a question? |
| cc |
What is a usual/reasonable length of time for a label hold, i.e. one that has not progressed into a producer or artist one? |
|
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| PatPete |
In our opinion, keep pitching it. Holds suck unless you really have a personal relationship and feel there is a strong possibility |
|
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| danNsara2 |
lol - good honest answer |
| cc |
Amen. Thank you |
| PatPete |
that something worth the hold will happen with the song. |
| poof |
' |
| Paddi |
"?" |
| cc |
What about passing up cuts in the meantime? |
| PatPete |
Don't pass them up. don't make me cry, don't make me blue....(Beatles influence) |
| cc |
lol. It's just not done is it?!! |
| PatPete |
What's not done? |
| cc |
holding a song in hopes of a certain cut while you pass up cut offers. |
| PatPete |
OK, if you have a song on hold and someone else wants to cut it, you could go back to the hold person |
| PatPete |
and tell them you have this opportunity - you must have pitched it before you promised the hold. |
| cc |
And if they can't get a yes or a no out of the producer . . . |
| PatPete |
If you don't want to jeopardize that realtionship, talk with them and see what the real scoop is on what they're intending for your song. |
| danNsara2 |
yes, it's also fairly common to get back up holds on a song cc...at one time we had a triple hold on a song. And of course all of them fell through |
| PatPete |
If you can't get a yes or no, make a choice or flip a coin. |
| cc |
Thank you. That's pretty much what we're doing. Just hard to move on when you haven't been told NO! |
| PatPete |
We wish you this dilemma frequently. |
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| cc |
Heads CArolina, tails california? |
| danNsara2 |
Paddi - you're up |
| Paddi |
Just got a letter today from songwriting assoc which indicated the Library of Congress lost 5 million in Gov't funding. I've heard people talking abouting grouping songs together under one title to save money. Can you do this? And do you reccomend it for a poor unknown songwriter to take that route? |
| PatPete |
If a compilation sopyright makes you feel better, it won't hurt. But you'll have to separate out any song |
|
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| Marty |
. |
| poof |
' |
| Paddi |
I think we're are safe until 2001 before rate hikes |
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| PatPete |
and re-copyright it if any action happens on it. We don't bother and neither doa lot of publishers until the song is ac |
| PatPete |
actually making money. |
| PatPete |
Losing that funding may mean the costs of copyrighting will rise. |
| Paddi |
So a publishing company interested in your material won't foot the bill?? i can hear all the experienced writers laughing!! |
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| PatPete |
They won't copyright it until they get a cut. |
| Paddi |
Do I need to worry about copyrighting at all? |
| danNsara2 |
yes, we totally agree with you Pat & Pete |
| PatPete |
Keep records of everything involved with the song from day one so you have some proof of creation date. |
| PatPete |
Don't worry, be happy. |
| cc |
How reliable is the thing where you registered mail it to yourself? |
| PatPete |
Not at all reliable. |
| Paddi |
I had all the proof until my files got erased!! |
| danNsara2 |
yes, it won't hold up in court |
| JodiMuse |
Read the Copyright & Publishing Q&A here on The Muse's Muse, cc - http://www.musesmuse.com/pubq-a.html - That is not a reliable method at all. |
| PatPete |
There are too many great songs out there for people who are really serious to bother stealing anything from anyone. they're too busy pursuing the perfect song.. |
| Paddi |
So if a pub comp is interested will they ask the writer to get it copywritten? |
| cc |
Thanks. |
|
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| PatPete |
No, they'll do it themselves if they sign it and get it cut. |
| poof |
' |
| Paddi |
Sorry that is mute ? from your previous answer |
|
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| Paddi |
Thanks |
| danNsara2 |
Does anyone else have another question for Pat & Pete? |
| cc |
? |
| danNsara2 |
go ahead cc |
| Marty |
. |
| cc |
What is the single best piece of advice you can give to co-writers who don't know each other? |
| PatPete |
Get to know each other! |
| cc |
In other words, ones who want to write together but it's like an arranged marriage? |
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| andyX |
rt6u56 |
| PatPete |
Just kidding on the square. Sit down and talk and see where your common grounds are. |
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| cc |
And don't expect a fully finished song first session? |
|
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| PatPete |
Get a feeling for how much the writer knows about the business aspects of songwriting. |
| mac |
? |
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| danNsara2 |
mac, I think you're up |
| PatPete |
It is possible to fully finish a song in the first session, but it will make you dizzy. We've done it and staggered out of the session wondering what hit us. |
| mac |
ok |
|
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| cc |
I am green with envy. Thank you. |
| PatPete |
We believe in doing a lot of talking before we start to write, about life, the univese and everything. |
| PatPete |
universe, that is. |
|
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| PatPete |
You have to hone in on something you can both feel strongly enough about to focus on and express in a song. |
| cc |
I'm glad to hear that. I thought maybe it was just a "cut to the chase thing". |
| poof |
' |
| mac |
Ive written several songs and haven't got a copy yet .Shoulod I do one at a time ot several. What do ya'll do |
| Beth |
? |
| PatPete |
Mac, do you mean copyright? cc, we like a lot of foreplay. |
| mac |
yes |
| cc |
I was thinking the same thing. lol |
| mac |
copywrite |
| PatPete |
Don't worry about copyrighting your songs until they are cut. Put your money into great singers on your demos and songwriting books and classes to learn more about the craft and business. |
| Marty |
. |
| mac |
couldn't somebody steal them if I don't and send them in somewhere |
| danNsara2 |
we totally agree with you Pat & Pete |
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| danNsara2 |
but a lot of people feel like mac does....what can we tell them? |
| PatPete |
Nobody will steal them. Let them out into the world and see how the world reacts. |
| mac |
cool |
| mac |
thanks |
| Varmit |
if a song sucks..a 500 demo won't help it...it still will suck!! lol |
| cc |
And maybe date your drafts and work tapes. |
| PatPete |
Even if you copyright your songs, that wouldn't stop someone from stealing them. |
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| andyX |
bjty |
| mac |
you mean they can steal them if they're copy writeen |
| danNsara2 |
Beth, go ahead |
| Beth |
If you give your song to a co-writer and they don't do anything with it for months, is it o.k to give that song to someone else, even if the first person still wants to help you with it |
| PatPete |
Only a lawsuit will enforce the copyright. You should be so lucky to write a song that would be worth the suit. |
| cc |
good point! |
| danNsara2 |
yes, copyrighting only means you have legal recourse to sue someone if they steal it.... |
| PatPete |
Bethm No, it's not OK. You need to clear it with the original collaborator. |
| Varmit |
this ole varmit is still waiting to write one that is worthy of stealin |
| PatPete |
do you want them off the song entirely? If so, you need to work that out and sign a simple written agreement to that effect. |
| PatPete |
You may lose that person as a future collaborator. |
| PatPete |
Do you want to add a third? Again the original collaborator has to agree. |
| Beth |
the lyrics are done...he is going to put music to it...he has had it for a year |
| PatPete |
if it's a clear cut case of you gave them a set of fully written lyrics and asked them to write a melody, it makes it simpler. |
| kenny |
? |
| Songweaver |
? |
| Marty |
. |
| PatPete |
You could say something like, "I respect your writing but this melody isn't working for me. I'd like to try another melody writer." |
| PatPete |
then you have the problem of why don't you just give this one another chance. |
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| cc |
What reason does the person give for taking a year? |
| Beth |
PatPete...he hasn;t done a melody to it at all, but still says he wants to |
| Beth |
He said he has other things come up cc |
| PatPete |
Sorry, I lost track of the fact that he hadn't done anything at all. |
| poof |
' |
| PatPete |
that's even easier. Just tell them you're going to move on with this lyric, but you'd still like to submit other lyrics you think ywould be of more interest to him. |
|
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| Marty |
? |
| Beth |
o.k. thanks |
| PatPete |
That's if you still would like to work with him in the future. |
|
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| danNsara2 |
Kenny, you're up next followed by Songweaver and then Marty gets the last question of the night |
| kenny |
when you are pitching asong do you think other writers that hear the song may use certain parts of what they hear and like do you believe some writers listen to a song being pitched and write around it |
| Paddi |
Thanks Dan'nSara, Jodi and PatPete. Gotta go. Educational and enjoyable as usual! Goodnite all! |
|
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| JodiMuse |
Take care, Paddi! |
| PatPete |
sure, we're all cross pollinating all the time. That's not stealing, it's tapping into the collective consciousness. |
| andyX |
ghkj |
| PatPete |
The point is to keep going for what you want and not worrying about or being fearful about what you don't want. |
| Varmit |
thats great advice |
| PatPete |
We teach what we want to learn. |
| PatPete |
And we're all teachers. |
| danNsara2 |
Songweaver, you're up and Marty you get the last question |
| Varmit |
if you have to look over your shoulder to make sure no one is looking when you hide your gold..no one will ever see it for sure |
| Marty |
. |
| Songweaver |
If I've signed a song with a publisher with no reversion, then the publisher goes out of business, do the rights revert back to me automatically? |
| andyX |
gjtyjk |
| PatPete |
That would be nice. But if the publisher goes out of business, did s/he sell ihe copyright or transfer them to someone else? |
| poof |
' |
| Songweaver |
no |
| PatPete |
In any case, after 35 years, a termination clause automatically kicks in and the song reverts back to the writers. |
| Songweaver |
I know that but i'm talking about the present. |
| PatPete |
Can you contact the defiunct publisher and ask them to realse the copyright? |
| PatPete |
defunct |
|
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| danNsara2 |
that's exactly what we were thinking Pat & Pete |
| Songweaver |
no, don't know where they went |
| PatPete |
Don't you get those e-mails, find out anything about anyone? |
| Varmit |
was it a publisher in the songwriters market guide? |
| danNsara2 |
you can bet if you get the song cut songweaver, they'll magically appear out of nowhere and claim the legal copyright ownership |
| PatPete |
Try calling the Songwriters Guild |
| Songweaver |
didn't know you could do that |
| Songweaver |
good point DanNsara |
| PatPete |
The chances are, there is a legal procedure to recover your copyright. |
| Marty |
. |
| danNsara2 |
Before Marty asks the last question of the night, Pat & Pete, could you give us the list of remaining cities for your workshop tour? |
| cc |
And thanks so much for your time tonight! Very, very helpful. |
| PatPete |
8/16 Amarillo, 8/19 Dallas, 8/20 Ft. Worth, 8/23 Oklahoma City, 8/24 Little Rock, 8/26 Memphis and thanks for the opportunity |
| kenny |
thanks for all the good info i enjoyed the session |
| PatPete |
You're welcome. Songwriters rule! Write On! |
| danNsara2 |
Thank you so much for your excellent advice and for giving your time to us tonight. |
| JodiMuse |
Thanks for joining us, Pat & Pete. We were really glad to have you. :) |
| PatPete |
Where's Marty's question? |
| danNsara2 |
Marty, go ahead and wrap it up :-) |
| PatPete |
Thanks to Jodi, Dan and Sara for their generous gifts to songwriters everywhere. |
| Marty |
on songwriting collaborating,,, I've run across some willing to cowrite but they prefer to work |
| PatPete |
work? |
| Marty |
with other assoc members such as BMI or ASCAP members, and some publishers require membership in one or the other before they will publish your material. |
| Marty |
any thoughts on this? |
| PatPete |
That's their way of limiting their writing partners. Find people you like whose writing you respect by going to clubs, etc., meetings. |
| Marty |
sorry hit enter key before donw typing. |
| danNsara2 |
Yes, we totally agree Pat & Pete |
| andyX |
ghki |
| Marty |
is this a common event? |
| Marty |
the belonging to either BMI or ASCAP? |
| PatPete |
Taxi has a page where collaborators are looking for each other. I'm sure there are other sites. Besides, you have Marcella and you two could make your own musical world |
| PatPete |
I never heard of that ASCAP or BMI thing before. |
| Marty |
LOL, thatnks. |
| Marty |
done. |
| kenny |
does anyone know dale vest |
| Marty |
Enjoyed having you here.:-) |
| PatPete |
Thanks for coming! |
| danNsara2 |
ok - that's a wrap for tonight's chat. Thanks again everyone for being patient and especially Pat & Pete for joining us tonight |
| danNsara2 |
We'll look forward to seeing you guys in Nashville in a few weeks |
| Beth |
Thanks Pat and Pete...and thanks Dan, Sara and Jodi...they were great.... |
| JodiMuse |
Thanks again, Pat & Pete. Good luck with the remainder of your seminars! |
| PatPete |
Likewise! Goodnight, and may you dream a hit song tonight. |
|
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| andyX |
jky |
| cc |
oops. Hope it's not too late to say goodnight P & P. |
| Marty |
have a safe trip Pat and Pete.:-) |
|
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| Varmit |
night and thanks |
| Varmit |
may you remember it if you do lol |
