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A Log of our 16th Guest Speakers, Pete & Pat Luboff - August 14, 2000.

A SHORT BIO:

Pete & Pat Luboff have been teaching songwriting workshops since 1979 and currently teach a unique collaboration workshop in which all the writers participate in writing a song together. Using lessons learned from songwriters around the country, they wrote 88 Songwriting Wrongs and How to Right Them, published by Writer's Digest Books, and were recipients of the National Academy of Songwriters "Excellence in Education." Award. They are also A&R song screeners for TAXI.

As songwriters, the Pat & Pete Luboff have had success with "Trust Me," the first single on Snoop Dogg's "Topp Dogg" album, "I Wish He Didn't Trust Me So Much," a No. 2 chart recording by Bobby Womack and Calvin Richardson's "Country Boy" album, "Body Language" by Patti LaBelle (gold album) and the featured song in the John Travolta movie, "The Experts," among others.

They have both served as board members for the National Academy of Songwriters; Pete as vice chairman and Pat as president. Pete was a governor of the Los Angeles Chapter of NARAS for many years, including stints as vice president and secretary.


.............. Log on luboff.log started at Mon Aug 14 14:49:28 PDT 2000 ...........
PatPete Are we done yet? We're in Santa Fe, almost mid-way in our workshop tour. It's been great so far. songwriters knocking us out with their writing. Done
danNsara hi DP
DavidPiano Hello, Nan, Dan & Sara, Pat and Pete.
danNsara that's great Pat & Pete -- are you about halfway done with the tour now?
PatPete Yes, we have four down and six to go. done
JodiMuse Hi David! :)
danNsara cool -- and you're ending up in Nashville right?
DavidPiano Hey Jodi.
PatPete Yes, we'll be there around 9/1. Last workshop is an all day event in Memphis on 8/26.
danNsara sounds great
Nan DnS will the rules be the same? we put in a ? when we have a question right? and wait for you to call on us
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DavidPiano Hello Johnny.
proi.webpage.com [2009]  touser Welcome! If you have a question for our guest, please type a "?" and one of our moderators will tell you when to go ahead. If you have any questions, feel free to privately page me (JodiMuse) and I'll be happy to help. Meanwhile, enjoy! :-)
Nan hello the SCU
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danNsara hi Rod
JodiMuse Did that message go to everyone?
Nan hey ya rod
DavidPiano Hello, Rod.
danNsara got it Jodi
JodiMuse Hi Rod.
Rod Type HERE
Nan yep
kenny hi rod
Beth Hi David
JodiMuse Great.
ShortcutJohnny Hello everyone
DavidPiano Hey Beth.
Rod Hey there beautiful *wink*
kenny his short
danNsara Well, I guess we can get started -- If you have a "?" during the course of our chat, type the "?" and I'll call on you when it's your turn
ShortcutJohnny anyone from Florida?
JodiMuse The log has begun now.
Nan no flirting allowed in here rod!!
DavidPiano Not I, Johnny.
danNsara We're really happy that Pat & Pete Luboff could join us here tonight
JodiMuse Thanks very much, Pete & Pat. We appreciate it!
Nan ?
PatPete We're happy to be here in cyber space with you.
danNsara I'd like to start by asking Pat & Pete to give us a quick little highlight of your life and career
danNsara in two sentences or less :-)
PatPete LOL! We met in 1966 and moved in with each other on the first night we met. The rest has been songwriting history.
danNsara wow - love at first sight
JodiMuse Wow! Talk about love at first sight. ;-)
danNsara and of course, you guys are not only hit songwriters but also authors and educators
PatPete Our latest take on songwriting is that it's the best thing in the world to do. To teach what you want to learn.
JodiMuse laugh. Ok. Climb OUT of my head, Danny&Sara... There's not enough room for us both. ;)
Nan LOL@JODI
danNsara very true
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PatPete Hi Danny & Sara, we look forward to seeing you in the flesh soon.
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danNsara Hi Jeff
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DavidPiano Hey Jeff!
Nan Hello Jeff
JodiMuse Hi Jeff!
JeffM hi
kenny hi jeff
ShortcutJohnny hi jeff
danNsara yes -- we're looking forward to it too
danNsara Nan - you have the first question of the night!
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Nan ok..PP how successful has your relationship with taxi
Nan been
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PatPete We can say from personal experience that Taxi is run by extremely honest people who are trying to do a service for songwriters and the music business.
Nan thank you guys
PatPete We screen songs for Taxi and it has taught us a lot about what it's like to be on the receiving end of songs.
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PatPete For instance, that first reaction to the title of the song. It's "Oh, this could be interesting." or O
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PatPete "Oh, not again." Even though we love songwriters, we can't help being human and reacting that way. It has taught us the importance of titles in a very concrete way.
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JeffM What's an "Oh, not again" title? :-)
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Nan I hear you, i tried publishing once..
Nan lol
PatPete A title that says I'm a victim or you suck.
Nan lol
JeffM "I'm a victim or you suck" is my best title!
danNsara Oh - I was bringing in "You Suck" as an idea for my cowrite tomorrow
Nan Do you own a paper shredder is my favorite line lol
JodiMuse lol
PatPete Depends on what you're sucking. I blame that on Pete.
Nan LOL@Sara
Nan he i wrote one called "Stuck on
Nan Stupid"
PatPete We believe in writing songs that we want to hear.
Nan my husband got offended for some reaason LOL
Beth that was the name of it, Nan
danNsara A followup on Taxi -- a lot of songwriters ask us if it's worth the money...do you think it is?
JodiMuse lol @ Nan I like that one. ;)
Nan yeah beth :)
Nan good question
ShortcutJohnny good critiques from TAXI
PatPete That's a good question. We think so because if you're serious about songwriting you spend lots of money on it. Taxi is a serious chance at very big connections and at the least is a good tool for feedback on your songs.
Nan Miles, aren't you a Taxi member
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PatPete It's one avenue to pitch, but like all the others, the song has to literally knock you out of your chair to make it over the hurdles.
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Miles yeah nan...2 years now
Nan you guys have to talk sometimes or you get booted...
Miles I see that !!!!
ShortcutJohnny waht are some other avenues like TAXI
Nan ?
PatPete There's nothing quite like Taxi, but there are tip sheets.
danNsara Shortcut -- if you have a question for the Luboffs, type a "?" and I'll call on you
danNsara Nan - you're up....again, if you have a question, type a ? and I'll call on you when it's your turn
Nan Have you guys heard of songs.com
PatPete Yes. don't know enough to make a comment.
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Nan it is another avenue for getting your songs heard
Nan me either lol
JodiMuse Hi Marty. Welcome.
Nan hello marty
Marty Hi Pat and Pete.:-)
danNsara Nan - we know one of the founders of songs.com -- it's a good avenue for independent artists
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PatPete Hi, Marty, from Tucson?
Nan come on guys surely I'm not the only one with a ?...thanks DnS
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Marty Yep!:-)
JodiMuse Hey, Kenna and Stephen. :)
danNsara ok - who else has questions
Beth Hi Stephen and Kenna
ShortcutJohnny ?
stephenb hi jodi
danNsara shortcut - go ahead
Kenna ?
PatPete Marty hosted our Tucson workshop. He's a great guy who is working to conenct songwriters in Tucson.
danNsara Kenna - you'll be next
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JodiMuse That's great!
PatPete Would you like us to ad lib?
ShortcutJohnny Is it nearly impossible to pitch a country song, if you're not based in Nashville?
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PatPete We don't think anything is impossible. Just keep trying, doing what seems the best thing to do at the time. Work on establishing one-on0one personal contacts.
kenny ?
PatPete There's a good connection thing in Nashville called Rowfax, I think it's about $160 a year or more and it gives vurrent leads.
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PatPete That's current leads
kenny what do you find the good to bad ratio when you're screening
danNsara kenny - Kenna actually is before you
PatPete It's very rare to find any songs that are forwardable. We live for those.
kenny sorry
danNsara that's ok -- I'll call on anyone when they're next just to be fair to everyone
PatPete Most days, we don't find any. It can be grueling emotionally.
Miles ?
PatPete It's really a thrill when we find a writer who is saying something special in a special way.
ShortcutJohnny ?
danNsara Kenna's up next followed by Miles then Shortcut
PatPete Is that a question about what we just said?
Kenna hey Pat and Pete...you guys are coming to Memphis at the end of this month...i hope to catch your session with the MSA...I have been asked to submit some of my songs to a California singer who is putting together a cd. what should i send besides a tape and lyric sheets? and should i copywrite before sending?
kenny ?
PatPete Send a cd if you can instead of a tape. Neatly typed lyric sheets with your name and phone number on them and NO chord names. Not necessary to copyright. The law protects you as soon as your song is in fixed form, i.e., written down or recorded.
Kenna great. Thats what I'll do..thanks!
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PatPete Maybe a nice short, sweet cover letter, no life story, just here are the songs you asked for.
Kenna not too needy then....
PatPete Talk to someone personally. Call a week later to find out if they got the tape.
PatPete Don't ask them how they liked it. Just if they got it.
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Nan hey ya andy
Beth Hi Andy
Kenna i guess if they like it, they will let me know
danNsara A follow up Pat/Pete -- a lot of songwriters are very worried about people stealing their material. How do you guys handle that?
ShortcutJohnny hi andy
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stephenb ?
andyX hey nan, beth and all
PatPete We don't worry at all. As Tom T. Hall said, we would be honored if they thought enough of it to steal it.
andman15 hey
Nan let someone else do the work..then you draw the royalties!!
danNsara Miles - you're up next followed by Shortcut and Kenny and then StephenB
Nan not a bad deal
kenny why do you think that is , do you feel that they just don't have enough formal training or what do you think
Miles What is the best way to find, and develope those one on one connections that you talked about earlier?
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andman15 I'm sorry, but I haven't heard of you two, what type of songs do you write
PatPete Present yourself with confidence. Make friends with the secretaries and assistants on the phone. Respond as rapidly as possible to any comments for rewites.
PatPete rewrites
PatPete Do not negotiate the business aspects yourself.
Marty ao
JodiMuse Andman, their bios are online at http://www.musesmuse.com/songhome.html
PatPete For instance, if you want to get a song to Dwight Yoakum. Call up his producer or manager.
PatPete Get the name of the person you talk to. Ask if Dwight is recording now.
PatPete They'll say, "No, we won't be looking until October.l" You say thanks and call at the end of September.
PatPete Ask for the person you spoke to the first time and say, You told me in august that Dwight would be looking in October.
PatPete Would now be a good time to send a tape?
PatPete I forgot, present yourself as a publisher, because you are until you sign you song to one.
PatPete If they say yes, ask if there's something special you should write on the envelope so it will be recognized as not unsolicited.
PatPete Send the tape and call a week or two later to see if they got it. You might get a chance to get more information on what's missing from the project, up[=tempo?
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PatPete or ballad, or whatever, or subject matter. Then you can send another song that might be closer to the target.
PatPete Don 't get impatient. Building relationships takes time.
PatPete done.
Kenna .
danNsara good advice Pat/Pete....I think we have Shortcut followed by Kenny then Stephen
danNsara Go ahead Shortcut
andyX .
Marty .
ShortcutJohnny I've been getting 3.5-4 ratings from TAXI. How close is that to forwarded material?
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PatPete You can have an absolutely terrific song but if it's not right for that particular listing, it won't get forwarded.
PatPete It's a real art to read those listings and send a song that's applicable.
kenny nothing at this time
PatPete If the listing says an artist a l la Garth Brooks, you sincerely have to be able to see Garth Brooks singing it.
PatPete Is it his subject matter, style, range, persanna?
PatPete personna.
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PatPete I've given songs top ratings and said this is a song that I can see a lot of peole recording but not the one this listing is for.
PatPete people
PatPete done
andyX ?
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danNsara Kenny - did you still have a question?
ShortcutJohnny thanks, good advice
danNsara andy, you'll be after Stephen
Marty ?
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ShortcutJohnny "?"
kenny not right now
danNsara Stephen, you're up followed by Andy then Marty then Shortcut
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PatPete Is anybody out there from Amarillo, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Oklahoma City, Little Rock or Memphis?
stephenb wow lots of good advice guys, I'm going to Nashville next week so I have been hitting the phones pretty hard ... any advice for getting in doors when I get there?
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Nan hello paddi
Paddi discussion tonite?
Nan yep and a good one
PatPete Check in at ASCAP and BMI if you haven't joined one already. a membership representative will help you with ideas. go to songwriter nights at the various clubs.
stephenb yeah I have that covered... anything else??
PatPete Kenna, did you say you'll be at the Memphis event? Back to Nashville. Check out the Bluebird Monday night thing, it's an experience.
PatPete The Songwriter's Guild has great events where you can meet people, as does NSAI. One thing will lead to another. We call nashville songwriter heaven.
stephenb k thanks
danNsara Or songwriter hell sometimes
PatPete Don't know about that 20 number
PatPete Heaven is a choice we must make.
danNsara Aahh - so philosphical...tis true
danNsara Andy, you're up followed by Marty then shortcut
andyX what are the listings ur referring to and where can u find them
PatPete Kenna, e-mail us at pluboff@writesongs.com
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Marty .
PatPete I think we were talking about the Taxi listings. You can find them at Taxi.com
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Nan welcome poof
danNsara and the rowfax you can get info on at www.musicrow.com
andyX are there other sites that have listings
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PatPete Thanks, for that infor danNsara. We'd also like to recommend a relatively new magazine, Music Biz. Really well-written
danNsara Do you have a web address for them Pat & Pete?
PatPete I know there are. Danny, I think I ran across one connected to your site. What the name on it?
danNsara SongPitch.com
danNsara and Jodi is affiliated with Songscope.com
Marty .
danNsara Marty - I think you're up next
PatPete try MusicBizMag.com or email info at info@MusicBizMag.com and tell them we sent you.
JodiMuse I've had personal contact with them (SongScope). Looked in their eyes, so to speak. I know that what they're doing, they're doing with the songwriters best interests at heart. That's the *only* reason I'd ever associate The Muse's Muse with them. Just wanted to toss that in so people understood me. ;)
danNsara Shortcut you're after Marty...if anyone else has a question, type a ? and I'll call on you when it's your turn
Marty If a song rec'd for a listing at TAXI is beter for anohter listing are you given some type of info to the listing it might be better for?
PatPete No, we're strictly screening for the listing we're assigned to.
PatPete At that point, we're unaware of any other listings.
Marty done.:-)
PatPete We might recommend another type of listing, but not a specific one.
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PatPete We will say that if the listing lists three artists, it's probably actually one of them.
PatPete done.
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PatPete Since there's a lull here, we'll put in our two cents that most of the business of songs is done through collaboration.
PatPete We're advocating a wide open sharing among any and all songwriters. Creativity thrives in an atmosphere of openness and trust.
PatPete and that atmosphere is really just a personal choice to be that way.
Miles ?
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Nan society is as we percieve it to be
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Marty .
PatPete Hey, we're sitting here sitting champagne. Who has a question?
Miles How important is a full demo for TAXI's purpose? Can it be just guitar/vocal?
PatPete I mean sipping!
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Nan LOL
PatPete Yes, but great vocal and great guitar. the song is the thing!
kenny ?
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Miles thanks!
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Kenna ?
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PatPete Speaking of the song. There's what you say and then there's how you say it.
PatPete What you say is the result of your life learning to the point of the writing of the song.
Beth ?
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danNsara2 sorry guys- our cable modem crashed
Miles But if you can get it done, would they prefer a full blown demo?
PatPete how you say it is the result of working on your gift to express it.
PatPete If you can get a really good demo, of course, it helps. The three most important aspects of a demo are 1,. a great vocal
Kenna .
PatPete 2. the "feel" and 3. the bass (harmonic structure). Adding some tasty riffs to fill in the spaces between sections helps.
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Marty .
Miles thanks.....done
PatPete Everything about the demo has to support the song, help it to deliver its emotional message.
poof '
danNsara2 Kenny did you have a question? Then I think Kenna followed by Beth
kenny what do you think of the old ballard type songs , the kind george jones and vern gosdin write and sing any market for that kind of work
Marty ?
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PatPete A truly moving song in a contemporary arrangement is always viable. Sometimes writers demo the song several differnt ways.
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griffd Hello Pete & Pat, Dan Griffith here
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poof '
griffd Hello
PatPete Try to make your demo fixable in an economic fashion by getting masters of the tracks only, tracks plus back-
griffd Dan Griffith in Tempe AZ here
PatPete ups, plus a full mix. Keep all your masters. Hey, Dan! How are you?
PatPete Still roasting down there?
Nan hello there dan..welcome
griffd Great, Just got back from Austin an hour ago
Marty .
griffd Did you make it up the hill to Jerome OK?
poof '
PatPete Dan was instrumental in setting up our Phoenix workshop. Yes, we drove the motor home and car separately as far as Cottonwood.
PatPete Then left the motor home there and took the car to Jerome. Also took a side trip to Sedona, beautiful!
PatPete Kenny was asking about demos.
griffd Lets talk demos
PatPete The thing is that six months after you finish your demo, you're going to be singing the song live.
poof '
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PatPete You're going to make a mistake and it will be better than what you wrote, and you'll wnat to change the demo
PatPete Make that easy by keeping masters of various levels of the demo.
Paddi "?"
PatPete Did that anser your question Kenny?
Paddi thanks
kenny thanks
poof '
danNsara2 Kenna, I think you're up now followed by Beth then Paddi
Kenna I went into the studio to do my demo and it isn't even as good as my "boom box" version. Should I send the living room tape since its better? of course, burned to CD...hehe
PatPete Most records imitate the demos pretty accurately, so it's your last chance to show your vision of the song.
Marty don't forget my ?:-)
PatPete Send what you think is best if it's an appropriate pitch. Don't let anything stop you from pitching. You'll do better in the studio next time.
PatPete Don't apologize in the pitch.
Kenna k...thanks. I will send what I think is best
Kenna which is just me and my guitar in my living room
Nan i need to go guys..thanks for the chat PatPete..night all
Marty after Beth.:-)
poof '
danNsara2 Bye Nan
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danNsara2 Ok - sorry Marty -- Beth, you're up followed by Marty then Paddi
PatPete Songwriting is a cycle of writing, demoing and pitching. You have to keep the cycle going.
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poof '
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danNsara2 Marty, I think Beth is gone for the moment, so you're up
danNsara2 then Paddi
Kenna thanks pat and pete
PatPete You're welcome! Write On!
cc Hi all. Did I miss it?
Marty ok, for us more musically minded, we talked in the workshop about doing the lyrics devoid of any instruments. Got any helpful hints in that area?:-)
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danNsara2 no cc - we're in the middle of our chat....if you have a question type a ? and I'll call on you when it's your turn
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cc ?
Marty I ten to want to grab the instrument to work it all out.
poof '
PatPete Experiment, experiment, experiment. Play with the words and melody justusing your voice. Your hands will go to the same old chords, but your voice can play more freely
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PatPete Try different intervals, phrasing, tempos.
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PatPete Meldoy has an emotional quality. Eventually you'll come out with the melody that perfectly suits the emotional message of the words.
poof '
PatPete Sorry about the typos but I'm trying to type fast.
danNsara2 that's ok Pat & Pete -- we can read typo
PatPete who's next?
griffd I have to run, nice chatting and thanks for the wisdom. WriteOn
danNsara2 Paddi - you're up followed by CC
PatPete Bye, Dan
Paddi Hi Patn'Pete I just wrote and recorded a song in the 1st person and realized it probably would have worked better in the 3rd person to avoid putting a time frame on it...like from a story teller or observer roll. My question is would it be acceptable to leave the demo as is and submit alternate lyric sheet? I like the way the recording turned out. It does capture the song pretty good.
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PatPete No, it's really awkward for the listener to read a different lyric than what's being sung. Unfortunately you can't ask any listener to hear through anything.
cc I have to add 2 cents Paddi--I now always ask for a track mix only, no vocal, so that I can have it resung affordably.
PatPete But this goes back to our idea about making the demo flexible so you can easily re-do it in this type of situation.
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PatPete two great minds!
Paddi Yeah but my so called pal erased my files!!!
Paddi Oh well back to the drawing board
Paddi Thanks
PatPete Actually, this sort of thing happens a lot. Oops! Keep the masters!
PatPete Don't leave the studio without them.
danNsara2 bummer Paddi
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poof '
Paddi Well it's my home recording stuff so it's my bad
danNsara2 CC - do you have a question
cc Forgive me if this question has been asked, but I am about to relocate to Nashville--and I just wonder whether you feel it truly makes a difference to be there.
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PatPete Danny and Sara could probably answer this better than we, but it's our take that it would be better to be there.
PatPete You can't beat the real thing, face to face networking.
danNsara2 Yes, CC -- it's very difficult to make it unless you're here
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Marty Type HEREsorry, system crashed.:-(
danNsara2 part of it is the song, but a lot of it is patience and networking as Pat & Pete have said
poof '
danNsara2 Beth, I think you're up
Beth Did you guys start out writing with each other or did you write your first songs with someone else
PatPete Pete was writing songs with someone else when we met. My previous songwriting experience had been in the Girl Scouts.
PatPete Now we write with each other, with third and foutrh parties and in groups of up to 100.
PatPete fourth
Beth 100?
Paddi ?
PatPete When we write with each other, we can be anywhere. We finished our last two songs while climbing mountains
danNsara2 wow - divide that statutory rate by 100...hmm what is that?
PatPete At NSAI, we led one of our 12 Steps to Building Better Songs workshops to about 100 people, which is basically a mock collaboration
PatPete Pete doesn't like mock.
PatPete Simulated is better.
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danNsara2 Did you put all their names on the lyric sheet?
Marty .
poof '
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poof great question
PatPete We don't actually finish the song in that situation, but we write a chorus and a verse just to show the process. The most we have
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danNsara2 very interesting guys
PatPete actually completed a song with is 15 people. We did have one of our workshop songs cut with 10 writers on it. that group uses a psuedoname
PatPete to pitch the song under one name, but when it was cut, we did get all the writers' names on the CD.
kenny ?
danNsara2 Did you have to pay extra for that?
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PatPete It is interesting and lots of fun. We say the workshop really worked if someone falls off the couch laughing.
danNsara2 that's great
danNsara2 Paddi - I think you're next followed by Kenny
PatPete No, we didn't pay extra. And we got paid up-front for the CDs and sent the royalty checks out the the writers right away.
cc So sorry. My computer relocated me. Missed the answer entirely . . . But thank you!!\
PatPete the ones with money cahsed them and the poor ones framed them.
Beth ?
PatPete cashed
danNsara2 lol
Paddi I recorded a song that I think could be either country or pop. I've recorded it leaning toward pop style. Is it uncool to "suggest" that a song could be a cross over in a cover letter? Or should we let the industry professionals come to there own conclusions regarding our songs???
Marty :-)
poof '
PatPete Can you hear the artist actually singing this song? Is the demo going to make it harder for them to hear the artist singing the song?
PatPete Obviously, if you're pitching it to the artist, the suggestion is understood that you think they would want to sing it.
Paddi I'm not sure what you mean
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PatPete The demo should sound close to what the artist should do.
PatPete We mean would do.
danNsara2 Yes, that's very true Pat & Pete
Paddi I find these days some songs are pretty close Like Lonestar's Amazed
danNsara2 Just a footnote on that - it's pretty common in Nashville for publishers to do two demos of a song that might crossover
poof '
Paddi I see
danNsara2 This Kiss had both a very pop demo and a country demo
PatPete We agree with danNSara
Marty .
kenny is it a good idea to let home town groups cut your material
Paddi so when submitting two versions can u still count it as only one submission??lol
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Paddi done...sorry kenny
PatPete Yes! Go for it! Do this as much as you can. It's free promotion. From a Distance was covered 15 times before Bette Mid
PatPete dler cut it.
cc ?
PatPete You wouldn't submit two version, only the one approrpiate one.
PatPete Two versions...appropriate...
Paddi whichever genre your targeting?
PatPete Yes. More specifically the particular artist you're targeting.
Paddi Thank you
danNsara2 Beth, I think you're up next followed by CC
Beth I was just wondering what song that was and who recorded it...I would like to hear how it turned out with that many songwriters contributing to it...
poof '
PatPete It was a song called "Roots & Wings" which was cut by a local L.A. artist Sue Crawford. It has been used at Fathers and Mothers Day celebrations, weddings and funerals. Now that's what we call an all-purpose song!
PatPete it turned out absolutely wonderful. It's the way we teach songwriting, by doing it with the people in our workshops.
Marty .
danNsara2 that's great Pat & Pete
PatPete We have a way of getting everyone to be on the same page about what we're trying to express.
Beth o.k. thanks
danNsara2 CC - do you have a question?
cc What is a usual/reasonable length of time for a label hold, i.e. one that has not progressed into a producer or artist one?
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PatPete In our opinion, keep pitching it. Holds suck unless you really have a personal relationship and feel there is a strong possibility
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danNsara2 lol - good honest answer
cc Amen. Thank you
PatPete that something worth the hold will happen with the song.
poof '
Paddi "?"
cc What about passing up cuts in the meantime?
PatPete Don't pass them up. don't make me cry, don't make me blue....(Beatles influence)
cc lol. It's just not done is it?!!
PatPete What's not done?
cc holding a song in hopes of a certain cut while you pass up cut offers.
PatPete OK, if you have a song on hold and someone else wants to cut it, you could go back to the hold person
PatPete and tell them you have this opportunity - you must have pitched it before you promised the hold.
cc And if they can't get a yes or a no out of the producer . . .
PatPete If you don't want to jeopardize that realtionship, talk with them and see what the real scoop is on what they're intending for your song.
danNsara2 yes, it's also fairly common to get back up holds on a song cc...at one time we had a triple hold on a song. And of course all of them fell through
PatPete If you can't get a yes or no, make a choice or flip a coin.
cc Thank you. That's pretty much what we're doing. Just hard to move on when you haven't been told NO!
PatPete We wish you this dilemma frequently.
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cc Heads CArolina, tails california?
danNsara2 Paddi - you're up
Paddi Just got a letter today from songwriting assoc which indicated the Library of Congress lost 5 million in Gov't funding. I've heard people talking abouting grouping songs together under one title to save money. Can you do this? And do you reccomend it for a poor unknown songwriter to take that route?
PatPete If a compilation sopyright makes you feel better, it won't hurt. But you'll have to separate out any song
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Marty .
poof '
Paddi I think we're are safe until 2001 before rate hikes
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PatPete and re-copyright it if any action happens on it. We don't bother and neither doa lot of publishers until the song is ac
PatPete actually making money.
PatPete Losing that funding may mean the costs of copyrighting will rise.
Paddi So a publishing company interested in your material won't foot the bill?? i can hear all the experienced writers laughing!!
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PatPete They won't copyright it until they get a cut.
Paddi Do I need to worry about copyrighting at all?
danNsara2 yes, we totally agree with you Pat & Pete
PatPete Keep records of everything involved with the song from day one so you have some proof of creation date.
PatPete Don't worry, be happy.
cc How reliable is the thing where you registered mail it to yourself?
PatPete Not at all reliable.
Paddi I had all the proof until my files got erased!!
danNsara2 yes, it won't hold up in court
JodiMuse Read the Copyright & Publishing Q&A here on The Muse's Muse, cc - http://www.musesmuse.com/pubq-a.html - That is not a reliable method at all.
PatPete There are too many great songs out there for people who are really serious to bother stealing anything from anyone. they're too busy pursuing the perfect song..
Paddi So if a pub comp is interested will they ask the writer to get it copywritten?
cc Thanks.
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PatPete No, they'll do it themselves if they sign it and get it cut.
poof '
Paddi Sorry that is mute ? from your previous answer
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Paddi Thanks
danNsara2 Does anyone else have another question for Pat & Pete?
cc ?
danNsara2 go ahead cc
Marty .
cc What is the single best piece of advice you can give to co-writers who don't know each other?
PatPete Get to know each other!
cc In other words, ones who want to write together but it's like an arranged marriage?
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andyX rt6u56
PatPete Just kidding on the square. Sit down and talk and see where your common grounds are.
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cc And don't expect a fully finished song first session?
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PatPete Get a feeling for how much the writer knows about the business aspects of songwriting.
mac ?
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danNsara2 mac, I think you're up
PatPete It is possible to fully finish a song in the first session, but it will make you dizzy. We've done it and staggered out of the session wondering what hit us.
mac ok
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cc I am green with envy. Thank you.
PatPete We believe in doing a lot of talking before we start to write, about life, the univese and everything.
PatPete universe, that is.
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PatPete You have to hone in on something you can both feel strongly enough about to focus on and express in a song.
cc I'm glad to hear that. I thought maybe it was just a "cut to the chase thing".
poof '
mac Ive written several songs and haven't got a copy yet .Shoulod I do one at a time ot several. What do ya'll do
Beth ?
PatPete Mac, do you mean copyright? cc, we like a lot of foreplay.
mac yes
cc I was thinking the same thing. lol
mac copywrite
PatPete Don't worry about copyrighting your songs until they are cut. Put your money into great singers on your demos and songwriting books and classes to learn more about the craft and business.
Marty .
mac couldn't somebody steal them if I don't and send them in somewhere
danNsara2 we totally agree with you Pat & Pete
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danNsara2 but a lot of people feel like mac does....what can we tell them?
PatPete Nobody will steal them. Let them out into the world and see how the world reacts.
mac cool
mac thanks
Varmit if a song sucks..a 500 demo won't help it...it still will suck!! lol
cc And maybe date your drafts and work tapes.
PatPete Even if you copyright your songs, that wouldn't stop someone from stealing them.
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andyX bjty
mac you mean they can steal them if they're copy writeen
danNsara2 Beth, go ahead
Beth If you give your song to a co-writer and they don't do anything with it for months, is it o.k to give that song to someone else, even if the first person still wants to help you with it
PatPete Only a lawsuit will enforce the copyright. You should be so lucky to write a song that would be worth the suit.
cc good point!
danNsara2 yes, copyrighting only means you have legal recourse to sue someone if they steal it....
PatPete Bethm No, it's not OK. You need to clear it with the original collaborator.
Varmit this ole varmit is still waiting to write one that is worthy of stealin
PatPete do you want them off the song entirely? If so, you need to work that out and sign a simple written agreement to that effect.
PatPete You may lose that person as a future collaborator.
PatPete Do you want to add a third? Again the original collaborator has to agree.
Beth the lyrics are done...he is going to put music to it...he has had it for a year
PatPete if it's a clear cut case of you gave them a set of fully written lyrics and asked them to write a melody, it makes it simpler.
kenny ?
Songweaver ?
Marty .
PatPete You could say something like, "I respect your writing but this melody isn't working for me. I'd like to try another melody writer."
PatPete then you have the problem of why don't you just give this one another chance.
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cc What reason does the person give for taking a year?
Beth PatPete...he hasn;t done a melody to it at all, but still says he wants to
Beth He said he has other things come up cc
PatPete Sorry, I lost track of the fact that he hadn't done anything at all.
poof '
PatPete that's even easier. Just tell them you're going to move on with this lyric, but you'd still like to submit other lyrics you think ywould be of more interest to him.
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Marty ?
Beth o.k. thanks
PatPete That's if you still would like to work with him in the future.
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danNsara2 Kenny, you're up next followed by Songweaver and then Marty gets the last question of the night
kenny when you are pitching asong do you think other writers that hear the song may use certain parts of what they hear and like do you believe some writers listen to a song being pitched and write around it
Paddi Thanks Dan'nSara, Jodi and PatPete. Gotta go. Educational and enjoyable as usual! Goodnite all!
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JodiMuse Take care, Paddi!
PatPete sure, we're all cross pollinating all the time. That's not stealing, it's tapping into the collective consciousness.
andyX ghkj
PatPete The point is to keep going for what you want and not worrying about or being fearful about what you don't want.
Varmit thats great advice
PatPete We teach what we want to learn.
PatPete And we're all teachers.
danNsara2 Songweaver, you're up and Marty you get the last question
Varmit if you have to look over your shoulder to make sure no one is looking when you hide your gold..no one will ever see it for sure
Marty .
Songweaver If I've signed a song with a publisher with no reversion, then the publisher goes out of business, do the rights revert back to me automatically?
andyX gjtyjk
PatPete That would be nice. But if the publisher goes out of business, did s/he sell ihe copyright or transfer them to someone else?
poof '
Songweaver no
PatPete In any case, after 35 years, a termination clause automatically kicks in and the song reverts back to the writers.
Songweaver I know that but i'm talking about the present.
PatPete Can you contact the defiunct publisher and ask them to realse the copyright?
PatPete defunct
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danNsara2 that's exactly what we were thinking Pat & Pete
Songweaver no, don't know where they went
PatPete Don't you get those e-mails, find out anything about anyone?
Varmit was it a publisher in the songwriters market guide?
danNsara2 you can bet if you get the song cut songweaver, they'll magically appear out of nowhere and claim the legal copyright ownership
PatPete Try calling the Songwriters Guild
Songweaver didn't know you could do that
Songweaver good point DanNsara
PatPete The chances are, there is a legal procedure to recover your copyright.
Marty .
danNsara2 Before Marty asks the last question of the night, Pat & Pete, could you give us the list of remaining cities for your workshop tour?
cc And thanks so much for your time tonight! Very, very helpful.
PatPete 8/16 Amarillo, 8/19 Dallas, 8/20 Ft. Worth, 8/23 Oklahoma City, 8/24 Little Rock, 8/26 Memphis and thanks for the opportunity
kenny thanks for all the good info i enjoyed the session
PatPete You're welcome. Songwriters rule! Write On!
danNsara2 Thank you so much for your excellent advice and for giving your time to us tonight.
JodiMuse Thanks for joining us, Pat & Pete. We were really glad to have you. :)
PatPete Where's Marty's question?
danNsara2 Marty, go ahead and wrap it up :-)
PatPete Thanks to Jodi, Dan and Sara for their generous gifts to songwriters everywhere.
Marty on songwriting collaborating,,, I've run across some willing to cowrite but they prefer to work
PatPete work?
Marty with other assoc members such as BMI or ASCAP members, and some publishers require membership in one or the other before they will publish your material.
Marty any thoughts on this?
PatPete That's their way of limiting their writing partners. Find people you like whose writing you respect by going to clubs, etc., meetings.
Marty sorry hit enter key before donw typing.
danNsara2 Yes, we totally agree Pat & Pete
andyX ghki
Marty is this a common event?
Marty the belonging to either BMI or ASCAP?
PatPete Taxi has a page where collaborators are looking for each other. I'm sure there are other sites. Besides, you have Marcella and you two could make your own musical world
PatPete I never heard of that ASCAP or BMI thing before.
Marty LOL, thatnks.
Marty done.
kenny does anyone know dale vest
Marty Enjoyed having you here.:-)
PatPete Thanks for coming!
danNsara2 ok - that's a wrap for tonight's chat. Thanks again everyone for being patient and especially Pat & Pete for joining us tonight
danNsara2 We'll look forward to seeing you guys in Nashville in a few weeks
Beth Thanks Pat and Pete...and thanks Dan, Sara and Jodi...they were great....
JodiMuse Thanks again, Pat & Pete. Good luck with the remainder of your seminars!
PatPete Likewise! Goodnight, and may you dream a hit song tonight.
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andyX jky
cc oops. Hope it's not too late to say goodnight P & P.
Marty have a safe trip Pat and Pete.:-)
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Varmit night and thanks
Varmit may you remember it if you do lol
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